之後，我的焦點轉移到社群的回應，有人好心提醒，最好把家貓留置戶內，尤其是在夜晚。隨即收養野貓的一派就斥之以鼻，因為野貓若被侷限則會顯得焦躁，終究必須放風。戶內與戶外的意見看似僵持不下，有人也趕緊跳下來提醒要尊重原帖的喪貓之痛。
莞爾的是，隔天另外有人又開一帖正經的討論到底該怎麼對待愛貓，接踵而至的回文當然又是公說公有理、婆說婆有理。我已經把整個討論串剪貼到底下，以供日後回味。
把來龍去脈交代完了，多年過後，我已忘記當初想寫這篇部落格的初衷了，可是自己的一些觀念應該沒變: 人類是多麼自我中心又自私的生物。貓與郊狼究竟誰可憐？動物一定需要具有「可愛」的相貌才值得維護嗎？沒有表情與誘人體態的魚類、昆蟲等等，其實終究無法上主流社群版面的，不是嗎？
在此套用留言裡，有幅漫畫網頁細說了，家貓到底殺害多少生命。
How much do cats actually kill? - The Oatmeal
... 三個家貓中有一個，一週內會殺害兩次性命，牠們，真的，如你想像的，那樣可愛嗎？
Coyotes and the Indoor/outdoor cat debat
https://nextdoor.com/news_feed/?post=62956296
Dave Horwitz, Westmont
This is likely to be controversial but maybe worth airing out in a focused discussion.
I just read yet another post about someone finding their cat had been killed in the night by coyotes. Very tragic very sad. They were unaware of the coyote situation in the area. Naturally the topic of indoor/outdoor cats was brought up (and maybe squelched as being wrong time and wrong post). I thought maybe a separate thread might be of value.
I will start it off with my views (which I'm open to having changed since I'm not a naturalist/ecologist):
I believe many, if not most, are aware of the coyotes. We live next to the foothills which is their natural habitat. Under various climate conditions they will range further for food. They naturally avoid humans but will overcome that for readily available, nearby food source. They have to work hard for food where they live and will get it elsewhere if it is more readily available or easier to obtain. They eat small animals. I think all that is a given and not likely to change in the near (or even distant) future.
Someone posted a week or so ago that they had a friend who lived elsewhere where they had coyotes. They told of their friend buying roasted chickens at the grocery store and leaving them out for the coyotes and that the incidents seemed to abate. They were suggesting that we might try something like that... I'm sure they meant well but it was an eye opening post. (I had visions of truck loads of roasted chickens and fat and sleepy coyotes ... and an influx of mountain lions looking for coyotes).
In short, my view is that letting your cats out (more so at night) is much the same thing.
I think everyone agrees with this but the counter argument is that some cats are outdoor cats (like rescued feral cats) and would be unduly stressed if forced to live indoors. That they will have a better life even given the risk of it ending prematurely. I can understand that. On the other hand maybe this is not the area to have a such a cat? If the cat is part of the family already then your options may be harder. Moving, or making arrangements for another home for you family member might be difficult or out of the question and you're willing to take the risks with your cat. I can understand that as well. What I don't think most people consider is that, if you go that route, you are also impacting the community. More readily available food, more coyotes.
Put bluntly but I did not intend it to be inflammatory.
6 Sep 17 · 35 neighborhoods in General
Not rocket science.
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/cats_actually_kill
Hmmm, I was more thinking of the coyote issue but the bird people do often mention the cats hunting them.
I have two indoor, fully-clawed cats and multiple bird feeders that they enjoy watching. We call it Bird TV.
If people insist on letting their cats out to do what comes naturally to cats, then they need to stop whining when they become coyote chow. If they're part of the food web, they are part of the food web.
Personally, I would prefer our songbirds only have to worry about our hawks.
Outdoor domestic cats are an invasive species. They put tremendous stress on native species -- like lizards and birds -- to the point of driving them to endangerment in some areas of the country.
There are plenty of things for the coyotes to eat other than cats. The biggest risk to outdoor cats around here is speeding cars. If you have an indoor/outdoor cat, there are a number of risks you take including coyotes... Personally, my family has indoor/outdoor cats and a cat door. My cats kill (and eat) a number of mice each year doing the neighborhood a service I think. My 2 cents...
Chris: that "service" is also a risk for your kitties. I know of at least 2 large apartment complexes (mine included) in our area that have Pest Control companies set rat/mice traps on their properties. The traps contain a highly lethal poison that causes a slow death for the poor rodents. They are active until they die and are easy prey for cats, hawks, owls, coyotes and any other predator. Any animal that consumes the poisoned mouse or rat also becomes poisoned and will suffer the same fate as the rodents. There have been Bills written to stop the use of the poison, but the Pest Control lobby has managed to block them. And they use it quite a bit in our valley.
So just one more risk to be aware of for outdoor kitties.
This has been a year where the coyotes are more bold and unafraid than any other year I've lived here, and I have been here over 25 years. They can be seen on our sidewalks, walking down populated streets as late as 10 A.M and as early as 8 P.M. They stand their ground as you approach them, until you get fairly close, then run away a bit and stop and stare at you. They are animals that will frequent an area over and over again for weeks, if they have made a kill in that area previously. They pack hunt efficiently, and kill many cats that way. Cats tend to hide under bushes, and think that they are hidden from predators. Cats that are any color other than black are more likely to be killed. The lighter color in their fur shows up under bushes. One coyote will flush out the cat, right into the jaws of the second coyote. If a cat goes up a tree, they coyote will come back regularly that night and others, to look for and stalk that cat. It is not fair to a cat that you call part of your family, to let it out at dusk or at night, and then let it get horribly killed. There are so many ways to acclimate a cat to being inside AND being happy inside. Even feral cats can be happy inside. The danger to outside cats is many and varied. There is poison from the pet control companies that they use on rodents. (See comment from Sharon, very accurate and sad), there is death from cars, antifreeze in the winter, dogs, raccoons and our ever present bobcats. Some folks feel that cats are self sufficient outside, but that is far from the truth. Just like other pets, and even humans, they need shelter and safety, food and water, and lots of love. Cat TV in the form of bird feeders suction cupped to any window provide hours of entertainment, laser pointers and wand toys are a good way to interact with your kitty. If anyone needs help acclimating their outside cat to live indoors, I would be very happy to help them to do that.
Jill, I respectfully disagree. Confining the cat to a house is not a good idea. Cats need to be outside.
Our cats are all indoor cats, except for one who is allowed outside when we sit outside. They've all adjusted just fine.
Chris -- indoor cats live much longer and much healthier lives than outdoor cats. Indoor cats average 10 to 15 year lifespans while outdoor cats only average around 2 to 5, Source: UC Davis Vet School & the Clinical Animal Behavior Services department.
Furthermore, outdoor cats -- or cats that are allowed outdoors independently -- absolutely devastate the local wildlife. So much that domestic cats allowed to free range are credited with driving a number of species of songbird or small animal to near extinction. Source; Scientists from the Smithsonian Institute and the US Fish and Wildlife Services.
Like everyone else in the the world, having an opinion without having the experience. I was adopted by a feral cat. His life was miserable before he meet our family. He is an indoor/outdoor cat now. It took 2 years of living on my front porch before he came into the house. He won't us a litter box. He goes to the door and yells when he wants go out. When he is in for the night, he climbs on my bed and taps me until I wake, then walks to the door. He as been with us over 12 years. He has been in many scraps, beat up by other cat, once badly injured. We tried to keep him in the house while he healed. I leashed him while he use the yard. When he was confined to the house, he was always looking for a way to escape . We have cared for him the best we can. Our neighborhood once had many rats, but since his arrival rats are a thing of the past. I know, because he brings his prize to our front door. Our cat is known by all our neighbors. When we are gone, they all look after him. I know that every time he goes out it may be the last time I see him. It pains me. He is half wild and lives in his world.
Mitch-- sounds like a good cat and the rat deprecation is welcome.
One anecdote does not a trend make. On average, outdoor cats live lives that are 3x to 8x shorter than indoor cats.
And your lovely cat? For every rat it has brought you, there are likely a trail of dead birds, lizards and other native species.
And those lizards? They eat black widows. We had a hunter cat that would wander around our house for a couple of years (neighbor cat) that was invariably seen munching on lizards. During that time, there was an explosion of black widows. My son and I counted nearly 100 hundred curb side in the houses right around ours.
That cat died a few years ago (as outdoor cats do) and the lizards population has bounced back while the black widow population has decreased noticeably, too.
i had an indoor/outdoor cat who lived to be 17 or 18. and she had gotten into scrapes, we almost lost her when she got into a bad fight with a neighbor cat, appropriately named ali (my point is that not all indoor/outdoor cats die at a young age, when a pet dies it sux no matter the age) her brother died at the age of 5 or so, and its been 21 years since and i still cry over cats that look like him, pictures, whatever. a friend of a friends cat had to be put down at the age of 10 mo
Regardless of whether a person (or cat rather) is lucky or unlucky, for those lost to poison, or in the topic's case, coyote, it's a TERRIBLE death. I ran by a house on Moore a year ago to see what looked like a bloody fur coat spread out on someone's lawn. I will never forget it and I'm sure the person who lives there won't either. It's something to consider when living in our beautiful wildlife bordering town. I lost a cat as a child and still wonder what happened to him. In college I had a cat hit by a car and I cried so loud all my neighbors could hear. I had three cats who were "lucky." I would keep a cat inside at this point because of all I know now.
Like Mitch, I've had the experience of living with a cat that would literally go nuts if he could not be outside. He would wait by the door and scream to be let out. If he didn't get his way he would begin to scratch apart screen doors and curtains/furniture, bounce off the walls and counters to knock things to the ground, stalk and attack housemates, and bully the other cat living in the house. At least he would use the litter box 50% of the time, but wouldn't bury his feces. Eventually he would wait for the moment someone opened the door to the backyard/frontyard to make his mad dash out and away, and no one would have the energy/guts to stop him...
OK...not trying to upset anyone, but how about this....
Since it's a free country, whoever wants to have an indoor Cat can do so...........and whoever wants an indoor/outdoor Cat can do that too.
The issue can forever be debated, but I see the good & bad on both sides.........and I'm not even a Cat lover........I love Dogs & Horses.
Most important, our 85 pound Lab does not allow Cats inside our home.......plus the thought of any Cat walking on our Kitchen Counters when I'm not home is 100% unthinkable.
Except, I DO LOVE my next door neighbor's 3 Cats and some little stray Orange Kitty who enjoys sitting on our front porch. She's adopted us, so as long as she stays outside, she's welcome to our porch and our patio chairs and Kitty Treats anytime.
Anyhow, have a great weekend everyone! :)
Joan....great comment!
Awhile ago on Netflix we watched "The Lion in Your Living Room".........it was really eye-opening.....I highly recommend it.
@Elaine, Joan, Mitch
This may not be the place for outdoor cats. It is a free country and it may or may not be legal to let a cat roam (I don't think you can let your dog roam freely but they can be a direct threat to humans). What about the effect on the community? You and your cat may be willing to take the risks but by putting it out there you are, in effect, feeding the coyotes.
Wish we could get an ecologist on here to see if that is a significant/measurable factor. If everybody lets their cat out, does that attract more coyotes?
Bill Bumgarner, ·
The problem, Elaine, is that an outdoor cat impacts the environment and the property owners through which it roams. Got a sand box? You've got domestic cat crap and all the diseases therein (which are worse than what few wild animal crap might pop up-- see feline toxoplasmosis).
And, of course, there is the impact on the local population of small animals and birds. Rat killer? Great. But no cat just kills only rats, they also kill any small thing that moves. It is inborn instinct.
So, your freedom ends the moment you encroach upon my freedom.
And, yes, David, the above isn't just idle speculation. While I'm not an ecologist, the above is drawn from scientific papers from ecologists and biologists.
Like this summary:
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmth/local_resources/pdfs/behavior_pdfs/Cats-Indoors_or_Outdoors.pdf
Or this news report, which cites various liable sources:
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-21236690
Oh for heaven's sakes Bill, having an outdoor Cat is not unconstitutional or against any laws or city ordinances that I know of........that is, unless you can cite me one...but you can't because it doesn't exist.
So whatever you mean by ME "encroaching upon your freedom" is hilarious.
Of course you can always write your congressman or senator because I'm sure they will take this important matter to Washington.
Bill Bumgarner, ·
Wow, Elaine, hyperbole much?
I was pointing out that, despite your claim of FREEDOM, there is a very real cost and impact of cats being allowed to roam freely. And, yes, that includes free roaming cats posing a health risk to humans. There is a reason why pregnant women are recommended to not go anywhere near litter boxes, for example.
Let me put it in simple terms: If a cat enters into my yard, it will get the hose. If a cat craps in my flower bed repeatedly, it may get trapped and turned into animal control.
So, sure, let your cat roam freely, as currently allowed by law. And if your cat wanders into my yard, it'll get a free bath (but nothing worse-- I love animals).
I would never purposefully hurt someone's pet. But I will prevent said animal from destroying my property,.
Wow Bill, very neighborly. I am hoping I don't live by you!
Bill Bumgarner, ·
Why? Because I'm advocating for the health of domestic cats and for the protection of the environment based on scientific studies?
How is that not being neighborly?
(And, again, I'd never hurt a cat... just get it a bit wet. The trapping thing? That'd be after a very long long drawn out attempt to find some other solution-- a nuisance level animal only. Never happened. Doubt it ever will.)
The problem is the feral cat population. A lot of people are trying to get that under control via advocating spay and neuter, and TrapNeuterRelease (so they don't keep reproducing) etc. Every Neighborhood has feral cats - no matter what the income level. I have trapped about 12 feral cats and kittens in my Neighborhood. One of the males was 7 years old, and a female was estimated to be 4 years old. There is only a short window of time to domesticate kittens, so trapping or getting the kittens before they are 6 weeks old is important if possible. IF they are not rescued early, it takes MONTHS to domesticate them. The coyote make a very small dent on the cat population. They do catch people's pets if convenient, but I think their main prey are the rabbits, mice, rats and other rodents. The coyotes are important (understatement) to most communities. People need to learn to co-exist, and part of that is keeping cats indoors if you can't live without them. There are MANY risks to cats who live outdoors including speeding vehicles and rat poison. I just saw a red tailed hawk yesterday, who looked like it might have been poisoned by either fertilizer (pesticide) or rat poison. We have indoor/outdoor cats. It's hard to keep them inside due to our dogs and their main pray is rats/mice. Ours like to bring them inside alive for the stream of feral kittens we tend to have. I do have 4 adorable 6 week old kittens if anyone is interested or knows someone who might like a new addition.
Bill...."hyperbole?".......look in the mirror and say that to yourself 10 times.
And Bill, for the 3rd time, I do not own a Cat............I own a Dog.
If you want to start a thread about Dogs, then you can lecture me there about...uh......uh.......I don't know, but I'm sure you'll think of something :-D
Alicia Woodrow, ·
Marissa Shepherd, what do you mean by describing a vicious animal and then saying "Appropriately named Ali"?? I can't believe that you mean this the way I think you mean it. Please tell us that I'm wrong about this.
PS for Bill.......I just want to say that I am not mad at you.....you raised some very good points and all that I was saying is, I can see both points of view.
The fact is, on so many of these threads, very good topics turn into arguments and that's not a good thing.
Debate is good and we are all neighbors and we look out for each other...that's what counts.
Anyhow, Bill and everyone else too, have a great evening!
Dave Horwitz, ·
Elaine, you said
"Since it's a free country, whoever wants to have an indoor Cat can do so...........and whoever wants an indoor/outdoor Cat can do that too."
"Oh for heaven's sakes Bill, having an outdoor Cat is not unconstitutional or against any laws or city ordinances that I know of........that is, unless you can cite me one...but you can't because it doesn't exist."
No one is disputing that but some people may not be aware of their effect on the community and they might care about that. I think most everyone here feels some responsibility to the community whether they are legally bound to it or not. Bill is pointing out that your cat (No, not YOUR cat Elaine) might effect the community. I was speculating (more wondering) that letting your cat out might add to the coyote situation. Kind of like ringing the coyote dinner bell.
I'm "wondering" because I really don't know if that has a measurable effect or not. I doubt there are many cats in the foothills. I'm guessing the rodent population might be about the same? Is the relatively high density of cats a draw for the coyotes?
...I'm thinking Muhammad Ali. sting like a bee.
Elaine Hodges, ·
Dave...that Ali too!! :) And here's a (some say unconfirmed) quote about Ali.....
~Just before takeoff on an airplane flight, the stewardess reminded Ali to fasten his seat belt.
"Superman don’t need no seat belt,” replied Ali.
“Superman don’t need no airplane either,” retorted the stewardess.
I love it!
~~~Anyhow Dave about the cats, I see both sides of the matter. :)
OK...gotta finish making dinner for my family! :)
How many here have been to Monterey Bay? Do you like it? Thank the sea otters. It was thought early in the Twentieth Century, that the southern sea otters were extinct from wanton over hunting by people wanting to sell their pelts. But in 1938, while constructing the Highway 1 bridge over Bixby Creek, a "lost colony" of about fifty otters were found. They were actually known by the locals, who had kept them a secret.
Meanwhile, the Monterey Bay was barren. The kelp forest was non-existent and the offal from the canneries made only flocks of sea gulls happy. The stench was unpleasant and ubiquitous. But there were a lot of sea urchins and abalone - who had eaten all the giant kelp long ago. It is actually called an urchin barren.
Anyway, the sea otters were protected, and after about 25 years, in 1963, they rounded the corner into the bay and found a smorgasbord. Sea otters eat 25% of their body weight every day and once the urchins and abalone were found, the sea otters followed.
By 1973, the otters had eaten back the urchins and abalone into the crevices. And the kelp forest had returned. Now, giant kelp has enormous holdfasts which act like condominium for a host of critters, like brittle stars, tube worms and whatnot. It also serves as a nursery for fish. That means the fish population increased, and so did the population of birds, like cormorants and pelicans, that eat them.
Everything that the Monterey Bay is today, is the result of the last fifty southern sea otters, a keystone species, returning to the bay. Their population is over 3,000 now. Balance has been (mostly) restored.
What does this have to do with this thread? Who are the outdoor cats in this passion play? They are not the sea otters.
This might be called koyaanis-cat-si.
Um, kids? If you're going to discuss what is or is not against the law, you might consider looking up the actual laws first. In Campbell it is, in fact, illegal to allow any animals in your ownership or control to run at large. Yes, that includes cats. It is also illegal to allow your animal to defecate or urinate on any private property other than your own. Enforcement, of course, is a different matter since it is primarily complaint based.
If this debate is going to continue here, I thought at least that element should be made clear.
https://library.municode.com/ca/campbell/codes/code_of_ordinances?nodeId=TIT7AN_CH7.04GEPR_7.04.020ANRULA
7.04.020 - that's an interesting twist. Luckily, I am very firm with my indoor/outdoor cats and tell them in a very firm voice to stay on my property (unless the neighbor outdoor cat has specifically invited them over). David, thanks for moving this interesting discussion AWAY from the original thread so it can be discussed without directly affecting the feelings of my neighbor who lost her cat.